I think it will take me a little while to get the hang of finding a balance of how much to post, in a post. I may have overdone it a bit in my first post? I think there are too many ideas there to just "discuss". So, for my second post, I am going to include a short video, which I don't think requires much discussion. It's just pretty self explanatory and somewhat relates to the general idea of religion and beliefs. So I think I will just include it here, then add some thoughts and questions about "The Good Book" post.
Just to be clear, I hope that, eventually, at least a couple people will comment and have a discussion with me. However, I'm prepared to accept that most people may not have the time or the interest to delve into the work of one artist with this much depth. In which case, I will still post about all the things I want to post about, then maybe someday the world will realize how fucking brilliant Tim Minchin is and there will be college level courses for this type of discussion I will use this material to do a Tim Minchin workshop at a UU CON for teenagers.
Moving on. Short video for today- "Take My Wife"
Discussion topics/questions for my first post, "The Good Book".
1) Did you like the song?
2)According to the song, The Bible paints morality in black and white, when life is more varied and colorful. Some people (fundamentalists) think it is the authoritative and definitive source for all life's questions and problems. I don't even know how to phrase a question here. This is just strange to me. What do you think?
3) I love the line, "I feel sorry for you heathens, got to think about all that". But, that is because I believe now that we "think about all that" we have achieved a higher morality in regard to some of the issues mentioned toward the end of the song, such as stem cell research, terminating pregnancy, easing suffering and the right to die with dignity, etc. Do we all think that our own morality is the right morality? I guess we do.
4) The reference to Genesis 6:5-7, I thought was going to be the bit in Genesis about humans having dominion over animals, but it is actually the bit about God regretting making humans and animals and wanting to wipe them all out. So, like the references to sacrificing children and stoning raped women, it speaks to the notion of whether a Christian god is a loving god. Something I don't understand, so I won't go on about it. Feel free, if you like.
5) So, The Bible. What do you think of it? As UUs, we quote it sometimes. Many of us claim to find value in it, when viewed as a myth. What value do you find in it?
Tim's comments on morality-
6) Do you think morality is a selected trait? What are some possible examples of this? How could this work like a biological variance being selected? (Trying to wrap my head around this concept.)
7) Tim says, "apparently we need to 'respect' the choices of radical Islamists (freedom of religion and all that), but that means accepting the abuse of women." Do you think this is true?
One more...
8) "If you accept Faith as a basis for morality then you MUST logically accept that other people are going to use THEIR faith as a moral base. You cannot believe in God and Jesus and the idea that your morality comes from a 2000 yr-old book and then go whingeing if people fly planes into your buildings. They're only playing by the rules you condone: the eschewal of reason and the adherence to mythology that is both extremely powerful and massively open to interpretation." Discuss??
I spattered my opinions throughout this a bit. depending on how any discussion goes, I may add more. I'd really love to hear other thoughts or opinions on any of these ideas or anything else "The Good Book" brought to mind.
Where to start? First blog post. Let's jump right in to The Bible and consider where our morals and ethics come from. Do people learn morals and ethics from The Bible? What morals are they learning? If you don't read "The Good Book" can you be good?
I am going to post the video (Which is from the 2009 DVD, Ready For This?). Then I will post the lyrics. If anyone is still reading after this, I will post some comments from Tim Minchin that he wrote on a message board in response to the question, "Where do morals and ethics come from?". Discuss.
Lyrics: Life is like an ocean voyage and our bodies are the ships And without a moral compass we would all be cast adrift So to keep us on our bearings the lord gave us a gift And like most gifts ya get it was a book.
I only read one book but it's a Good Book don't you know I act the way I act because the Good Book tells me so If I want to know how to be good it's to the Good Book that I go, Cos the Good Book is a book and it is good and it's a book.
I know the Good Book's good because the Good Book says it's good I know the Good Book knows it's good cos a really Good Book would You couldn't cook without a cookbook and I think it's understood You can't be good without a Good Book cos it is good and it's a book and it is good for cooking chook
I tried to read some other books but I soon gave up on that The paragraphs ain't numbered and they complicate the facts I can't read Harry Potter cos they're worshipping false gods and that And Dumbledore's a poofter and that's bad cos it's not good.
Morality is written there in simple white and black I feel sorry for you heathens got to think about all that Good is good and Evil's bad and goats are good and pigs are crap You'll find which one is which in the Good Book cos it's good and it's a book and it's a book.
I had a cat she gave birth to a litter The kittens were adorable and they made my family laugh But as they grew they started misbehaving So I drowned the little fuckers in the bath When the creatures in your care start being menaces The answers can be found right there in Genesis (Chapter six, verses five to seven).
Swing your partner by the hand Have a baby if you can But if the voices in your head Say to sacrifice your kid To satiate your loving God's Fetish for dead baby blood It's simple faith the book demands So raise that knife up in your hands.
Before the Good Book made us good there was no good way to know If a thing was good or not that good or kind of touch and go So God decided he'd give writing allegoric prose a go And so he wrote a book and it was generally well-received.
The Telegraph said, "This God is reminiscent of the Norse" The Times said, "Kind of turgid, but I liked the bits with horses" The Mail said "Lots of massacres – a violent tour de force "If you only read one book this year, then this one is a book and it is good and it's a book."
Swing your daughter by the hand But if she gets raped by a man And refuses then to marry him Stone her to death.
If you just close your eyes and block your ears To the accumulated knowledge of the last 2000 years Then morally, guess what, you're off the hook And thank Christ you only have to read one book.
Just because the book's contents Was written generations hence By hairy desert-dwelling gents Squatting in their dusty tents Just because what heaven said Was said before they'd leavened bread Just cos Jesus couldn't read Doesn't mean that we should need When manipulating human genes To alleviate pain or fight disease When deciding whether it's wrong or right To help the dying let go of life Or to stop a pregnancy when it's Just a tiny blastocyst There's no reason that we should take a look At any other book but the Good Book cos it is good and it's a book And it's a book and it's quite good.
Good is good and evil's bad and kids get killed when God gets mad You'd better take a good look at the Good Book.
Now if you really want to dig into Tim Minchin's mind and heart, read his response when asked, "Where do you think human morals and ethics come from?".
"As we all know (or should), the tendency of religion to lay claim to morality is ridiculous. The Ancient Greeks - for example - were much more advanced in their contemplation of morality (and, arguably, just plain more moral) than the writers of the Bible. And they were cruising around 300 - 750 years pre-Josh.
I have no doubt that morality is a selected trait. ie - somewhere along the line, members of our species who failed to act in the best interests of their entire group failed to survive.*
But it's so complex, because specific ethical standards and moral norms change quite rapidly and at different rates in different places. In fact, one of the great challenges humans face is in trying to balance the need for understanding of others and the need to protect the rights of our fellow humans. For example, apparently we need to "respect" the choices of radical Islamists (freedom of religion and all that), but that means accepting the abuse of women.
This is why I am so passionate (at least intellectually and comedically) about Atheism. I know that we aint going to win the battle in my lifetime nor in the ten generations to come. But this I think is true:
If you accept Faith as a basis for morality then you MUST logically accept that other people are going to use THEIR faith as a moral base. You cannot believe in God and Jesus and the idea that your morality comes from a 2000 yr-old book and then go whingeing if people fly planes into your buildings. They're only playing by the rules you condone: the eschewal of reason and the adherence to mythology that is both extremely powerful and massively open to interpretation.
Hopefully, one day, we will grow up and realize that morality should not be treated relativistically - I think it needs to be treated as an ongoing human discussion, the goal of which is global concurrence. Obviously that goal will forever elude us, but maybe that's how it should be approached. And as times change, we need to be able to adjust. (Of course moderate Christians are the greatest adjusters of all. They just keep reinterpreting the text as morality moves forward. "Oh yes, Jesus would have been cool with woman priests and gay adoption". Fuck off. Jesus would've looked at you like you'd just asked him if he'd like his kebab microwaved.)
Sorry, that's some pretty open-ended and wildly idealistic thoughts."
Edit: When I first posted this, I forgot to include the asterisked footnote: *A really nice discussion on Altruism can be found on the last documentary made by Rhian Skirving (who is also making "Rock n Roll Nerd"!) It's called "The Kindness of Strangers" and apart from the lovely soundtrack (cough), it has interviews with all sorts of amazing people. One of whom Dawkins, who of course came to fame on the back of his book, "The Selfish Gene". hmm. Interesting. I'm not sure how one would find this doco. ABC stores?
